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Post by Battle Mod on Jun 26, 2009 3:24:31 GMT -5
history, novel, whatever.
Don't really know what to start discussing...uh...
That Cao Cao guy sure was a schmuck huh?
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Cao Pi
King of Wei 
Emperor of China
Posts: 233
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Post by Cao Pi on Jun 26, 2009 10:00:31 GMT -5
Cao Cao was awesome historically, the games portray him wrong obviously and the novel portrays him as a right idiot. I lost count of how manu times he said: 'Oh yes, i was thinking the exact same thing' whenever a plan was mentioned.  |
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Post by Zhang Fei on Jun 26, 2009 10:01:03 GMT -5
Cao Cao was awesome historically, the games portray him wrong obviously and the novel portrays him as a right idiot. I lost count of how manu times he said: 'Oh yes, i was thinking the exact same thing' whenever a plan was mentioned. Agreed, and I only got to the 40th chapter. |
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Post by Battle Mod on Jun 26, 2009 10:04:40 GMT -5
Cao Cao was awesome historically, the games portray him wrong obviously and the novel portrays him as a right idiot. I lost count of how manu times he said: 'Oh yes, i was thinking the exact same thing' whenever a plan was mentioned. Yeah...originally I was going to say Sun Quan was a schmuck, but who the hell would have responded to that? NOBODY cares about Wu. Nobody. Not even historians at the time. Wu was just "that other kingdom." Everybody thought either Wei or Shu were legitimate, and mostly Wei. I, for one, am gay for Zhuge Liang. |
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Kyle
Rebel Warrior
Your skin is something that I stir into my tea.
Posts: 81
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Post by Kyle on Jun 26, 2009 10:22:34 GMT -5
I, personally, love Wu. But I guess my statement is now considered false in light of this new information that nobody cares about Wu. As for Zhuge Liang, eh, he was an awesome statesman, and was pretty skilled in guerrilla warfare, a kickass dude all around, not a personal favorite, though.
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Post by Liu Bei on Jun 26, 2009 10:40:25 GMT -5
yeah, honestly Wu is probably my second favorite topic to look up stuff about, but apparently I am wrong.  Pang Tong > Zhuge Liang. |
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Post by lyle on Jun 26, 2009 10:48:40 GMT -5
Wu is da shite.
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Post by Battle Mod on Jun 26, 2009 10:50:08 GMT -5
Zhuge Liang was better by miles.
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Post by Liu Bei on Jun 26, 2009 11:12:03 GMT -5
No, You're on crack. Had Pang not had the misfortune to die, he would've put Zhuge in his place.
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Post by Battle Mod on Jun 26, 2009 12:06:06 GMT -5
No, You're on crack. Had Pang not had the misfortune to die, he would've put Zhuge in his place. Pang Tong was pretty good. He gave great, multi-faceted advice to Liu Bei when Liu Bei was in Yizhou. His accomplishments still can't really compare to Zhuge Liang though, and that's the only real way to measure them up historically. For all we know, maybe Kong Rong could have done something amazing if he had lived longer too. |
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Cao Pi
King of Wei
Emperor of China
Posts: 233
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Post by Cao Pi on Jun 26, 2009 12:10:27 GMT -5
You really can't base someones talent on a what if scenario Justin. Pang Tong died, had he not have been so hasty maybe he wouldn't have, maybe he'd have surpassed Zhuge Liang - or maybe he'd have just hurried a little more and got killed all over again so that other people can proclaim the greatness of a what if scenario.
Pang Tong did nothing spectacular for all I'm concerned, nothing that even puts him in the same league as the strategists that actually 'raped' peoples faces. Zhuge Liang is over-rated yes, but he did pwn everyone at least once, Pang Tong did no such thing.
As for Wu, I liked Wu....They out-lived the other kingdoms lol.
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Sun Ce
Ruler of Wu 
The Blazing Spear that is Wu shall never fade from history, rather diminish into it
Posts: 140
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Post by Sun Ce on Jun 26, 2009 12:27:35 GMT -5
You've been deceived, man. Zhuge Liang is brilliant in the novel, but he did jack shit historically. I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing he did is peacefully take out the Nanman, even then, your army is huge and theirs is not.
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Post by Battle Mod on Jun 26, 2009 12:35:21 GMT -5
You've been deceived, man. Zhuge Liang is brilliant in the novel, but he did jack shit historically. I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing he did is peacefully take out the Nanman, even then, your army is huge and theirs is not. He didn't take them out "peacefully." There is some confusion with it though. Mainly because Sima Guang's Zizhi Tongjian randomly states that Zhuge Liang killed Yong Kai. It is possible that Sima Guang got this from another source that doesn't exist today, but there is no other evidence that Zhuge Liang killed Yong Kai. What seems to be the case, according to the records of the states south of Mount Hua (Huayang Guozhi) is that the rebels had a quarrel. This led to Gao Ding killing Yong Kai. Following this, Zhuge Liang led his troops and killed Gao Ding. The issue is discussed at length in Three Kingdoms and Chinese Culture in an essay by Hoyt Cleveland Tillman. Great book. I'd suggest ordering it from amazon as it talks at length about the influences on the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Whether Zhuge Liang fought and captured Meng Huo 7 times is another confusing issue. Notably, the famed historical commentator Pei Songzhi drew on several sources to state that this was indeed a part of his campaign. HOW he captured Meng Huo so many times is not something that is explained, but presumably these were simple skirmishes in which Meng Huo was overwhelmed militarily. The creative accounts of the novel are complete and total fiction. There was no King Mulu, King Wutugu, or King Duosi. Zhuge Liang's historical campaigns were a mixture of successes and failures. It is clear that he didn't accomplish any goals of conquest. On the other hand, he also purposefully did not press his enemies very often. Some scholars believe that his campaigns were defensively offensive. While Shu-Han was invading, Wei did not attack often. They only struck at Shu-Han once during the entire period while Zhuge Liang was alive, and the invasion failed massively due to Zhuge Liang setting up excellent defenses and seasonal torrents impeding the Wei army. Immediately after Zhuge Liang died, Wei invaded. This invasion failed, but it is worth noting. Meanwhile, Zhuge Liang won several battles against Sima Yi. While his first campaigns were huge failures, his later campaigns showed that he exercised caution and a pretty keen sense of strategy. I suggest reading Killigrew's essay: www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jmcdoug/journal/volume%205/vol5killigrew.pdf |
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Xu Zhu
Warrior of Wei
Goddamn birds always start singing when the sun comes up!
Posts: 144
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Post by Xu Zhu on Jun 26, 2009 12:36:39 GMT -5
But are those great inventions of the time like the multiple crossbow, the wheelcar, the bombs, the stone maze, the ubermensch not real?!
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Post by Battle Mod on Jun 26, 2009 12:40:59 GMT -5
But are those great inventions of the time like the multiple crossbow, the wheelcar, the bombs, the stone maze, the ubermensch not real?! He did invent the Zhuge Nu, the wooden oxen and floating horses historically. Bombs and the stone maze are fictional. |
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